This next week we are going to talk about Norway and Sweden -- two examples of socialist democracies in world politics. We will compare these two countries with the United States.
An important way that socialist democracies provide benefits to their citizens is through higher taxation. Look at this article, it compares taxation rates in the US with those in Norway between three examples. The Norwegian citizen pays 43.9% of their income in taxes, the two Americans paid considerably less: one paying 33% and the other paying 28%.
What do you get for all those taxes?
This short CNN video briefly compares the US and Norwegian healthcare systems. Here is what a transfer student who goes to Norway to study at a Norwegian university would receive -- full national medical care, which is the same for all citizens.
Similarly, as the final Sakai Discussion Forum's assignment indicates, work life in Sweden is of higher quality compared to the vast majority of countries around the world, including the US. Workers have several weeks of paid vacation yearly, a shorter work week, extended maternity leave, a better work-home life balance, and less stress because people have more time to enjoy their lives and less worry about their economic future.
In general, citizens of Norway seem to be happier (and here is a video too) than citizens in other countries -- and citizens in Europe and especially northern Europe with the more socialistic democracies are the happiest places on earth right now.
What do you think?
Would you agree to pay higher taxes if you had the guaranteed benefits that citizens of Norway and Sweden receive? Why do you support such a system or why do you oppose such a social welfare system? Do you think such a healthcare and system is even possible or desirable in America?
I would, in a heartbeat, agree to pay higher taxes if I knew my government would take care of the things I may need help taking care of. If the government would offer free childcare, or healthcare, or what have you, I would fork over my taxes happily. Now, I don't think that America as a whole will go for this idea, however. The theme, if you will, of America is that you are able to make your own way, and that independence (even personal independence,) is the key to happiness. There's this "pave your own way" mentality that I don't think will ever die down here in the States, even if that means that we're unhappy or even starving.
ReplyDeleteLauren Duckworth
PSCI 100:01
I would agree to pay more in taxes to receive benefits such as healthcare, childcare, and other services. I think it would make many people's lives a lot easier not having to worry about things such as going into debt over getting a life-saving operation. Would Walter White have had to become a meth kingpin if the United States had paid for his cancer treatments? I believe that this sort of social welfare system would be desired, but I don't think that it would be easily implemented if it was at all. People hear social welfare and instantly assume that it's a bad thing, but if they listened to the details of what benefits they may receive, I think at least some would get on board.
ReplyDeleteHaving this kind of system would not eliminate the "American Dream" I don't think, it would just lessen the gap between the super rich and the super impoverished. People would still be able to build good lives for themselves, they would just be given a better living standard in the beginning.
Summer Varso PSCI 100:01
I would be more than happy to pay higher taxes if it means I would receive the wonderful social welfare benefits that Norway and Sweden receive. The people of those countries seem so happy with their lives. It has been statistically proven that citizens in those countries have a social system that is working. I think such a system is desired by lots of people in the United States but they don't know how to go about changing our current situation.
ReplyDeleteKatherine Madden PSCI 100:03
I would definitely agree to pay more taxes if it meant benefits like Norway and Sweden have. I support this system because I'm more concerned with leading a happy life than a financially prosperous one. However, I don't think this system is possible in the U.S. because of the stigma surrounding taxes and so many politicians and voters always wanting to decrease taxes despite the benefits they pay for, provided by the government.
ReplyDeleteTom Jones PSCI 100.01
I think paying higher taxes for a better government is fine. We are already paying enough taxes for the sub par government we have now, the increase in amount of taxes will equal a better government, something we all want and need. In Sweden and Norway there are multiple benefits that we unfortunately don't have in America because of the amount of taxes we pay. I truly support this system a stress free life is much more valuable than a life where you have an abundance of money. In most cases, happiness is one thing money cant buy.
ReplyDeleteRyan Perkins-Sturdivant PSCI 100:03
I think paying higher taxes for a better government is fine. We are already paying enough taxes for the sub par government we have now, the increase in amount of taxes will equal a better government, something we all want and need. In Sweden and Norway there are multiple benefits that we unfortunately don't have in America because of the amount of taxes we pay. I truly support this system a stress free life is much more valuable than a life where you have an abundance of money. In most cases, happiness is one thing money cant buy.
ReplyDeleteRyan Perkins-Sturdivant PSCI 100:03
I definitely would advocate for higher taxes if it meant that we would have guaranteed services to us like those in Sweden and Norway. The United States is like a dog eat dog society where the survival of the fittest is in full effect. It would be hard to pry Americans away from their philosophy on this. To have healthcare and childcare would be paramount to me and therefore I would definitely pay higher taxes for more services. I think this is one way that some countries beat us out. This is a great country but unless you have money, equality is something that you will never have here. Stress free to a degree is what I would really want higher taxes or not and Sweden seems to have gotten it right.
DeleteDamian Beane
PSCI 100.01
i completely agree with you. The boost that this type of change would give American citizens would be so worth the money! I would love to be able to relax and enjoy working my way through life instead of feeling like working myself to death is the only option.
DeleteCoryn Barger 100:3
If I was guaranteed to have all of the benefits and services that those in Norway and Sweden have, I would definitely agree to paying higher taxes. Right now in our country, richer people get better medical care because they can afford the best. If our system was like Sweden's, everyone would have access to the same healthcare and everyone would receive the same treatment whether they have no money or are a millionaire. I don't know how well this system would work in our country, because many rich people would probably hate the fact that they were being treated the same as people who live on the streets. It would also probably be harder to have time with a doctor because so many people would have access to healthcare.
ReplyDeletePSCI 100.01
I agree with you that the wealthier population would probably have an issue with the level of equality in terms of healthcare and the like. However, I think that it would be because they would think that something was being taken away from them and not just because someone else gets the same opportunity as them.
DeleteCoryn Barger PSCI 100:3
If I was promised all of the benefits that Sweden and Norway have I would most definitely be alright with paying higher taxes. The best part is that the higher taxes provide much more security. As stressed as Americans are about saving for retirement and paying for medical care and everything else, having that security would help a great deal and make us a happier country as a whole. I don't know if it would be possible to shape the U.S. into a place like Sweden or Norway but I think that it would be worth a try. While the more severe inequality between the wealthy and the poor bothers me a little..it doesn't bother me enough. That sounds awful but there's no way to avoid inequality. What i'm saying is...i'd rather pay more in taxes and be more secure and happier than fool myself by thinking that i'm paying less and having to rely on only myself when I need help from the government.
ReplyDeleteCoryn Barger PSCI 100:3
I do like your use of the term security. It is definitely an accurate depiction of what is gained by a much higher level of taxes. I also concur that the inequality doesn't really bother me although I know that it is there.
DeleteEdward Jackman PSCI 100:03
I would definitely be okay if taxes are raised and eventually our economy and society can like the ones in Sweden or Norway. The benefits outweigh the increased tax. Even in class we talked about their work life and education and childcare and the government seemed to be taking care of a lot of those in order for the parents to be able to put their whole focus on work and know that they don't have to worry about where their kids will go during work or how much they have to pay for daycare and nannies. Also, the health care system is better because if you are citizen of the country the government will take care of you and you don't have to worry about a separate cost. Unlike in the states where people chose not to go get surgeries or major health work done because the cost would be too much. This would not happen in Sweden or Norway.
ReplyDeleteKimi Khiangte
PSCI 100:01
I would definitely agree to pay higher taxes for situations like Sweden or Norway's. We already have a solid chunk of taxes taken out that we don't really see back in the first place. It'd be nice to be guaranteed help from tax money from the government if there was something that you needed help paying for. I don't think that Americans are taxed highly at all. I think that we are taxed way too much for what we're allowed to get back and how much of a hassle it is to even speak to the right people about getting money back. We have complicated our system so much because of the wealthy class turning their backs to the rest because they know that they are okay. I think the tables would be turned though if we made them pay for healthcare based on their income, meaning they may be able to get the best of the best attention, but it should come at a doubled rate or an increased rate to save money for other people too. I'd rather pay more in taxes and be more secure, than pay the taxes I have now and still come up empty handed.
ReplyDeleteStephen Ryan
PSCI 100:01
Yes i agree i would be okay with paying higher taxes if it was going to benefit me in the future with having a secure retirement fund that i would not have to worry about and not stressing over so many health care bills and plans. and i also agree in which it is fair that we should be taxed evenly based on our income so that the wealthy class is going to be still wealthy just a smaller gap which be beneficial to everyone and the economy.
DeletePSCI 100:03 Becca M
While people in Norway seem to be happy I would not want more taxes. The government is pretty intrusive in people lives the way it is, but if there were a tax increase then it helps the government have more control in the lives of people. While I do believe the government should help people in some ways I do not want the government forcing people to pay more. The more the people become dependent on the government the harder time they will have if things are being taken away. The larger control the government has on the people the more influence they will have in the lives of people. The less government we have the more responsibility the people will have. In America with how the system is now if we raise taxes with people getting the kind of money they have now there will certainly be more people coming up with no money. Therefore everything should be left as is and we should focus on shrinking the government instead of expanding it. - Kody Hinzman PSCI101:01
ReplyDeleteIf I was guaranteed happiness from paying higher taxes and still have the living style I have now, then yes, I would definitely be all for paying some more. The problem with this thought process though is that no one can guarantee any of us will be happier. Having the government do what it was designed to do- which is taking care of it's people- should not call for more taxes or lower wages. Government intervention is never a good thing in people's lives because whose to say when enough is enough? As the saying goes, give them an inch they'll want a mile. If we allow more intervention there will only continue to be more intervention. Soon we won't even be able to wipe our asses without Uncle Sam looking over our shoulder. What our politicians don't seem to understand is that we don't need more restrictions on alcohol or drugs, we need help with daily things like wages and work days. What I want to know is where we lost sight of helping others and turned it into helping ourselves.
ReplyDeleteI would defiantly pay higher taxes in means to have a better lifestyle and have the same benefits that the people of Sweden receive. Even though the taxes are high one thing that you need to take into consideration is how different the money conversion is. I believe it is 1 us dollar for about 6 sweden dollars. Because of that in reality the tax might not be that different than it is here. If the people there are more happy than here, Sweden is clearly doing something right that the USA is not doing. It would be nice to have the type of system of health care because I had to pay about $120 just to make sure i did not have any broken bones when i messed up my knee. No i don't think this could ever happen in the USA because our country is basically ran by private businesses and large cooperations and they would not want to give that type of health care because of the loss of profit.
ReplyDeleteMichael Solomonik. PSCI 100:01
I would 100% agree to paying more taxes if it benefitted me in the end. I think that the countries you talked about in class such a s Finland and Sweeden who's citizens are offered free child care and more paternity leave with no questions asked, makes life a lot easier. And eventually the cost of the services that you usually would paying for and are now receiving for free, over time you will see how much money you are actually saving! I think that setting up a system like this would never work in America, because people complain enough about taxes as is.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteI do not know enough about economics to make the rational decision of if I would agree to pay higher taxes for the benefits of a social democracy modelled after Norway and Sweden's governments. Simply flipping the switch over to social democracy and receiving free medical care, free child care, and a more stable mental state all sounds too good to be true. Recent lectures in class have taught me that the financial gap between social classes in Northern European nations is not as severe as that in the United States, however, the problems of the U.S. spending billions of dollars on the defense budget, or the government giving out tax write-offs to big businesses don't just go out the window. Where is that extra money on taxes going to be distributed anyway? Are we going to be involved in the decision of where the extra tax money will go because we could be promised better social services but waste our time chasing a dream that the government will continue to lead us on with. I don't know, maybe I'm just rambling because I'm tired. Higher taxes in exchange for the government taking better care of the public would be a great trade-off, but it just sounds to good to be true.
ReplyDeletePSCI 100:01
i agree that i do not know enough about economics to make such a decision and i would like to know where the government gets that much money to pay for everyones health care benefits, retirement, and give homes to home less people.and if eventually their country will go in debt like some of the other countries in Europe i know of because they are so socialistic and give too many "free" benefits to its people, they are starting to collapse.
DeletePSCI 100:03
Higher taxes for a better life? I would vote for it. I remember in high scholl civics clas we were talking about how a poll showed that Denmakr citizens are the happiest people on earth. They also have very high taxes but what comes out of it is that the cities are very nice and taken care of, the prices on houses/rent and schooling and recreational things are lowered drastically because technically you have already paid for these things through your taxes. You can ride buses and such for free. I feel that Americans are very stubborn and prideful so they would not want to pay higher taxes. They feel that as it is now, they are already paying too much in taxes but then complain that cities are dirty or they want something built in their community or something which is what tax money is used for. They don't want to pay for the things that they want. So even though higher taxes would result in a better life, they would not be for it. Also you have the Americans that believe that with higher taxes, that it will go towards making the government more powerful and we would move towards communism or something. I feel that yes those kinds of things are always a possibility but it is very paranoid and pessimistic and even conspricy theorist of them to not want to risk a better life usuing more taxes for the slim chance that they will become slaves to the government. The government is already very powerful with the amount of taxes we pay now, and that money goes to military more than anything, and that's not fair. But it makes me wonder if the taxes were raised would they spread it out or continue putting it all to military?
ReplyDeleteChevelle Whichard 100:01
DeleteI think that paying more taxes for the upkeep of cities creates a better environment all around. People are more apt to take care of something they have a share in. It also creates a greater sense of "we are a community" rather than we are just people sharing a space. It's a sort of camaraderie that we don't share in the United States any more.
DeleteEdward Jackman PSCI 100:03
Upon hearing that the people of Norway and Sweden pay 44% income taxes I was shocked. I didn’t like that information, until I understood why they pay so much in taxes and how it benefits them. If the system was run well I would most definitely agree to pay more taxes. I like their system because they don’t have to think about things like housing and medical care, what they actually earn that isn’t taken in taxes is all discretionary spending. I think that because the United States is so geographically different and spread out it would be difficult to implement such a system. I do think that it is a desirable system but I don’t believe it is possible in the U.S. because we are as much as 60 times the size of Norway’s population.
ReplyDeleteEdward Jackman PSCI 100:03
I agree with what Lauren mentioned. I would happily agree to pay higher taxes if I got the same benefits that Norwegians and Swedes get. The way I see it, Americans don't like paying taxes because they do not see the product of their taxes, this is because most of our taxes go to military spending, rather than things that directly benefit us. Sure we have roadways and sidewalks, but they are deteriorating, and we don't see them being improved. I think as of now, this system is not possible in America, because people are too greedy with their money and do not want to give it up because they want to see their money directly put to use.
ReplyDeleteMitch Woolley
PSCI 100.01
A lot of people complain about taxes, but I don't really see them much of an issue or rather something that needs to be complained about. If one is going to complain about taxes they should complain about to what their taxes are going towards instead of how much they are taxed. That said, I would be happier to pay higher taxes for healthcare, pension, etc. In the United States, healthcare is dominated by private business that are clearly profit driven. Under a government controlled healthcare system, all the money paid via taxes would go directly into providing healthcare and not to the shareholders. This would means that the healthcare is better or it easier to give it to those who can't afford/ pay less taxes.
ReplyDeleteI do think this is possible in the United States, however, it will would be very hard. One, a lot of people are reluctant to give the government even more power. Two, a lot of people are self-oriented, meaning they will have the train of though " I want to pay for MY healthcare and MY family's healthcare only." People would first need to understand why it is better, and put aside their self-centered attitude, which would be a hard thing to do considering that a lot of other aspects are oriented around that very thing.
Vasile Stadnitchii
PSCL 100:03
A lot of people complain about taxes, but I don't really see them much of an issue or rather something that needs to be complained about. If one is going to complain about taxes they should complain about to what their taxes are going towards instead of how much they are taxed. That said, I would be happier to pay higher taxes for healthcare, pension, etc. In the United States, healthcare is dominated by private business that are clearly profit driven. Under a government controlled healthcare system, all the money paid via taxes would go directly into providing healthcare and not to the shareholders. This would means that the healthcare is better or it easier to give it to those who can't afford/ pay less taxes.
ReplyDeleteI do think this is possible in the United States, however, it will would be very hard. One, a lot of people are reluctant to give the government even more power. Two, a lot of people are self-oriented, meaning they will have the train of though " I want to pay for MY healthcare and MY family's healthcare only." People would first need to understand why it is better, and put aside their self-centered attitude, which would be a hard thing to do considering that a lot of other aspects are oriented around that very thing.
Vasile Stadnitchii
PSCL 100:03
Today, many people are struggling to afford health care, child care, dental insurance, etc. Personally I think if they raised taxes, but included the insurance people needed and pensions, child care and etc then it would be very beneficial. Many people can't work because they don't have child care, they also dont have the best health because they dont have the insurance. Right now I believe that including these things in taxes would be very difficult. Many people would be apposed because they have the health benefits from their jobs and they can afford child care or do not need child care. But what about those in lower poverty areas? They are the ones that need it the most and can't afford it. If the United States were to implement this, it would take a while to get it in place. Hopefully some day we can have something like this in place.
ReplyDelete`Kimberly Nicholls PSCL 100:01
America has the capability to provide food and healthcare to everyone in this country. There is no good reason why we shouldn't. All people need food and medical care; this is an indisputable fact. The fact that people have to pay for the right to live is nothing short of disgusting. We have created an environment where a person's value is determined by how much money they have. This is unacceptable and must be remedied.
ReplyDeletePeople object to higher taxes because they feel that it robs them of the money they need to live; this shows a lack of understanding brought upon by being indoctrinated with capitalist values. It is so hard for Americans to imagine a world in which they do not have to worry about losing their house or starving. We would not have to worry about staying afloat, we could be freed from the tyranny of money, free to pursue life in any way we choose.
The goal of capitalism to become as rich as possible is ultimately self-destructive. Our society is constantly vomiting the myth into our ears that we need obscene amounts of money to be happy. This is a result of the capitalist system's attempt at self-preservation. In order to ensure its continued existence, it must brainwash the people it exploits into being selfish and competitive, discouraging solidarity and cooperation.
If we are ever to grow as a species, we must cast off the deification of the dollar, and focus on what is best for humanity rather than what is best for a temporary, inherently exploitative, and ultimately meaningless economy.
I would certainly pay more taxes if it mean I and my country would be happier. I feel like the only people who would choose not to are those who believe money is the key to happiness, or simply would rather have money than happiness. I will never understand these kinds of people, because I believe that there is more to life than making money and having more and more stuff. People may claim that the money they make is a sign of their worth and hard work, but I think there is more worth in a person who selflessly helps others than one who has climbed to the top of their career ladder. I think that those who help others are the ones who will be the happiest and feel the most fulfillment.
ReplyDeleteThis may be a hard concept to understand for most Americans, who are used to the addictive materialism our capitalist economy relies on. But people need to wake up and notice the hamster wheel they have been running on. The more you fall into the trap of wanting more and more, the less satisfied you will be with what you have. This endless cycle is why many successful lawyers and businessmen wake up one day in their 40's and realize they hate their lives. But at this point, they are in too deep- they have house mortgages, car payments, and families who are used to a specific lifestyle. They can't jump off the hamster wheel now, or their whole life will crumble around them.
Perhaps this is why people in socialist countries are the happiest- they know they are, essentially, paying to support a society that helps those citizens who need it the most, while still making enough to live off of (if not to the excess that we know in America).
Pandora Affemann PSCI 100:03
I think that I would definitely agree to pay higher taxes for more overall benefits as a citizen. If it would ensure a free healthcare system for all citizens then its a no brainer. However, the US seems to just be having a problem with where the money is going. Sure we pay higher taxes for free healthcare, but what is the quality of that healthcare going to be like? Is all of the extra tax money actually going to go to that? Or will it be transported other places that it doesnt need to be going? I think that alot of people would agree and pay higher taxes but at the same time i think that most people would know it wouldnt actually be possible.
ReplyDeleteToday in America, so many people are struggling every day just to make sure their family has dinner on the table and a house to sleep in that they can't even think about getting healthcare even if they need it terribly. It makes me truly sick that people have to pay in order to get the things they need to live like healthcare, food, and housing. So I would definitely agree to paying higher progressive taxes if it meant that my family and country would be happier in the long run. If everyone would get free and adequate healthcare, have their retirement money saved for them, and guaranteed housing and food, it sounds like nothing but beneficial. I think the only people that would have a problem with this policy is the people that think all homeless people are lazy and worthless or people that think their money can buy them happiness. They wouldnt like the fact that people get houses and food without even paying for it, they would use our very american view of "they are just living off the government" etc. Other than those probably very rich people, I feel like everyone would be okay with paying more as long as they know for sure that it is benefiting them in the long run. I love that places like Norway and Sweden focus on equal distribution more than just the equal opportunity part of things. U.S. only focuses on the equal opportunity and we waste so much food and let houses just rot away instead of giving it to the homeless and the hungry. America would be in a much better place I believe if we started adopting some of Norway and Sweden's ideas like the progressive tax, do I think we ever will though? No I don't because America is too stuck on this Capitalist government we have. They believe that it truly help all of us but it only helps the rich and exploits the poor and they will never try another approach especially a socialist approach because they believe that socialist are the "devil".
ReplyDeleteBrooke Sowers
PSCI 100:03
Socialism and capitalism effectively reflect two conflicting worldviews: collectivism and individualism. While socialism values the well being of everyone as a whole, capitalism values the individual. While socialism prioritizes people over economic growth, capitalism is strictly economic in nature. Weighing these values against each other is key to determining the superior system.
ReplyDeleteRegardless of moral deficiencies, capitalism accomplishes its goal effectively. That is, capitalism creates economic prosperity. This is evident throughout history by industrial revolutions and modern economic rankings. Capitalism works. But at what cost? Also evident by history, economic prosperity does not equate to a higher standard of living. In fact, the opposite is true. Capitalism has historically fostered class discrepancies and lower standards of living for the majority of citizens.
The main argument against socialism is the high potential for abuse. This argument establishes capitalism as a system that rewards hard work and penalizes sloth. As such, capitalism provides incentives to achieve success and fuel economic growth. Conversely, socialism is established as a system that rewards sloth and penalizes hard work. Since wealth is distributed, the poor have little responsibility and the rich’s potential for success is limited, resulting in less incentives for success for everyone.
The problem with this argument is the assumption that everyone has the same potential for success in a capitalist economy. Disabled, sick, and poverty stricken children do not have the same potential for success as their healthy, financially stable counterparts. This is not due to laziness or irresponsibility, but rather inherent qualities. In this way, capitalism does not reward hard work and penalizes sloth, but rather rewards privilege plus hard work and penalizes the disadvantaged plus slothful. This cycle of rewarding the privileged and penalizing the disadvantaged perpetuates class discrepancies and is the reason why the wealthiest 1% of Americans own 40% of the nation’s wealth.
For this reason, I would agree to pay higher taxes if I had the guaranteed benefits that citizens of Norway and Sweden receive. I value equality over economic prosperity.
A hallmark of American politics, capitalism reinforces individualistic ideologies staunchly associated with the economic powerhouse. Although most Americans would oppose a shift from capitalism to socialism now, small steps can be made today to effect change in the future.
Elijah Spinney
PSCI 100:03
Like most others, I would definitely agree to pay half of my paycheck to taxes if I didn't have to pay out the ass for simple things like childcare and healthcare like Americans do now. Currently America has enough food to feed the entire world, so there is absolutely no reason why anyone living in America should go hungry, yet they are.
ReplyDeleteIf a more socialist system with higher taxes and more welfare programs would lead to more equality and no more homeless, starving people in America, I would back it up, as long as the person making it possible can promise that this system will work the way it should.
Emily Brown PSCI 100:01
I would pay higher taxes in a heartbeat if it meant receiving the social benefits that a citizen of Norway or Sweden received. I’m not totally sold on socialism just yet, but that being said – I’m also not sold on how the United States treats its citizens either, so I’d be willing to try something new. I mean, it seems to be working for Norway and Sweden. Yes, free universal health care is the smart choice. It does not make sense that in a country like the United States, your life can be ruined if you get sick and can’t afford care. I also think it is disgusting the amount of power that private insurance companies have. Would Americans accept free universal health care? No. In general, Americans are terrified of it. I think a lot of people believe that communist dictators get their foot in the door with the use of socialized medicine?
ReplyDeleteLorna Morton
100:03
If there were guaranteed benefits, such as healthcare, that would be provided to me for no cost, and all I had to do was pay higher taxes, I all for it. Country's that practice this notion of making their citizens pay higher taxes have shown that it is very effective and their citizens life styles are more sufficient. I honestly would move to one of these country's if I ever get the opportunity to. In the United States today, there are more homeless people than there probably is in Norway or Sweden. It's ridiculous how the government can afford all this military funding but can't find a way to get homeless people off the streets and in secure homes.
ReplyDeleteAll those benefits that a socialist system gives seems worth it for higher taxes, its important for people to be living their life and have it be worth living. I totally agree with free health care, healthcare should be free everywhere including the united states especially since its health care is of terrible quality anyway. I definitely support this system for its pro humanitarian results.
ReplyDeleteHolly Campbell PSCI 100.05