One point we've talked about this week is the role of fear in creating and sustaining totalitarian political systems. Fear can paralyze political dissidence by active, critical citizens. Fear can lead citizens to forgo their freedoms and accept a level of security that would otherwise be unacceptable.
After the events of 9/11, the US government began engaging in a number of procedures that were contradictory to a functioning democracy. Sheldon Wolin, a Professor of Politics at Princeton University, has argued that the US has started to become a managed democracy, or what he calls an inverted totalitarian regime. You can read about inverted totalitarianism here. More recently, Eben Moglen at Columbia University's Law School, began a series of public lectures on the changing nature of the American political system. In his words, "We are being told that spying on entire societies is normal." To carry out that spying, the US government is using "procedures of totalitarianism."
Click on these links. Read a bit. Formulate an opinion and tell me:
What do you think?
Are these men off their rockers? Or, do you think they might be onto something here? What do you find convincing or not convincing about their arguments? If you agree with their arguments, what does that mean for the US? What does it mean for you?
It is becoming more and more clear that there is nothing the NSA considers beyond its reach or illegal. We have a security agency that has no comprehension of what security is. It's certainly not totalitarianism, I don't think it too fat off of inverted totalitarianism.
ReplyDeleteAlex Smith
PSCI 100:02
I agree with Alex. Lately, the NSA and their methods have strayed off the beaten path from what is within constitutional means. It seems that the NSA has almost forgotten how to do their job and what the intended outcome should be. This is not at all totalitarianism and do not think that it is far off from the real thing
ReplyDeleteKevin Cantarilho
PSCI 100:02
I completely agree as well! The NSA has completely strayed away from what they are meant to be doing. Seems as if they just want to control the uncontrollable and the unspoken. Instead of keeping us safe. You cannot control the outcome of everything, if they were doing their job then the boston bombing wouldn't have happened.
DeleteChelsi Kling
PSCI 100:02
While I do not think that the United States is going to become totalitarian, I agree with the two aforementioned men that America is slowly moving to a way more controlled structure. I may be a little more sensitive to the government's control because I still seem to align myself with Libertarian beliefs, but I am a firm believer that the more rules and regulations that get passes, the less free we become. I may be one of the few people that like the government shutdown right now because people are starting to realize even more that the more the government controls, the worse off things seem to be. I hope that more things can become privatized, or at least have the states take control back like they are doing with some of the national parks, in order to prevent the shift towards too much government control.
ReplyDeleteWhile I do not think that the United States is going to become totalitarian, I agree with the two aforementioned men that America is slowly moving to a way more controlled structure. I may be a little more sensitive to the government's control because I still seem to align myself with Libertarian beliefs, but I am a firm believer that the more rules and regulations that get passes, the less free we become. I may be one of the few people that like the government shutdown right now because people are starting to realize even more that the more the government controls, the worse off things seem to be. I hope that more things can become privatized, or at least have the states take control back like they are doing with some of the national parks, in order to prevent the shift towards too much government control.
ReplyDeleteBrandon Smead
Psci 100:03
I think the government has increased its surveillance after 9/11 and at the time people were willing to allow it because of the attack. But it has been 12 years and the nation can't justify intruding on other nations and American citizens anymore. But once the government starts something its hard to stop it, and people just start to think of it as a norm. I think it would be really hard to tell if we were in an inverse totalitarian state because it would be a natural evolution of the government and we already feel freer than we really are.
ReplyDeleteKayla Piechowiak
PSCI 100-03
I think that these indiviuals are right because after a terrible event such as 9/11 surveillance would increase immediately just because of this event has taken place. These men can be right because the US citizens would never know the government does because they tell the people anything to keep them calm and out of their way so they can complete any tasks or missions they find necessary. For the US this means that every other country that has used lies, indoctrination and diseption can be mirroed by the US. For the US people it means that the US can turn for the worse of remain the same however we are living in a country that talks about other countries faults but they use the same tatics.
ReplyDeleteJ.C. Mao-Alston
PSCI 100:03
I believe what these people are speaking of are actually on to something however I do not believe that they will be able to formulate any significant support with the way the government is set up will never allow this movement to get as large as a national movement. The NSA is spying on entire societies and is doing so illegally. I find their arguments to be very convincing simply because I agree with their stance on the issue. They are trying to carefully change the minds and hearts of Americans by making the idea of spying on entire societies is useful and normal in the name defending terror when in fact being attacked on American soil is not as likely and even if taking preventative measures is necessary spying on American citizen does not seem useful. I believe these people are on to something however I do not see a drastic change coming up simply because of the government and how they will deal with the situation. What it means for me is I would like to see this movement become an intense issue and changes being made yet I know the likelihood of that actually happening. Its becoming something Americans are resigned to.
ReplyDeleteBen Howar PSCI:10002
Wolin's comments about inverted democracy seem right on target, especially with the government being servants to large corporations which are actually doing the governing. This seems quite identical to what has been happening in this country, I mean look at the government bail-outs of large companies like GM in recent years. This situation eerily reminds me of Ayn Rand's novel "Atlas Shrugged", though the author herself held anarchist leanings. The downfall of the government and social structure in the novel was by no means pretty or enjoyable, and that makes me anxious about my future and the future of the country. These guys are on to something, and as Moglen put it, "We are being told [it] is normal." What's worse is that we are kind of believing it.
ReplyDeleteKatelyn Amspacher
PSCI 100:03
After the attack on 9/11, I do believe the heightened state of awareness and security were necessary. The American people were in shock and afraid for their country and it was all too easy for the government to take advantage of that weakness. But it has been over a decade since that time and the security system of our government has gotten carried away. With that said, for the past 12 years or so, people have merely accepted this but, naturally, with the recent government shut-down, people are waking up and seeing just how "off their rockers" our politicians really are. They have a system that they try to control, and I would certainly say an inverted totalitarian government is much closer to what we have today than any sort of democracy. With this shut-down, people are seeing just how little "freedom" they actually have. For God's sake, our government shut down forests and the vast majority of this nation obeys that order! A government that tells people they can't walk in a field or in the woods because it's designated a "national park" is pretty damn far from a democracy.
ReplyDeletePSCI 100:02
I pretty much agree with both men are saying. With what the person above said, after the attacks on 9/11, the government took that opportunity to feed off the fear of the country to tell us that we need more security, more surveillance, etc. But this security and surveillance has gone too far. Media and news outlets have also fed the fear of terrorist attacks, like the Atlantic article said, "Over the last four decades, lightning has killed more Americans than terrorism." I don't find spying on the entire country in a handful of ways helpful at all in finding potential terrorists.
ReplyDeleteI would hope the US stays away from absolute totalitarianism, but with the way it's going, I really don't know. The Daily KOS says, "And there is, of course, the culminating moment of national elections when the attention of the nation is required to make a choice of personalities rather than a choice between alternatives." I kind of related this to the past Obama/Romney election. I feel like a lot of people were pro-Romney because he wasn't Obama. And that's really not how you should go about making your decision (not that your vote matters, anyways, but still). No matter who gets into office, no one is ever happy.
Megan Douglas
PSCI 100:02
I don’t’ agree with the thought of our government taking things too far; yet, Wolin and Moglen offer ways that the government has leaned toward totalitarianism. With Wolin, we have a sense of liberal democracy. He finds common ground with the Nazi and Stalinist regimes. Yet, this could be the outcome of too much government control. Due to the drop in citizen voting, the government has a great influence in political elections. Also, lobbying is seen as normal, and not corruption. To add to the nonsense, Moglen says that spying is also a normal. As an example, 9/11 had a great impact on our country. The government is using it as an excuse to violate the rights of many citizens. They claim they’re “preventing terrorist attacks”. Unfortunately, they’re only gaining more access into our personal lives with surveillance and other means of hovering. I do believe that Moglen and Wolin are leaning towards the right prediction of the US turning into a totalitarian state, whether it’s inverted or not.
ReplyDeleteVictoria Wilson
100:02
I believe both Wolin and Moglen make valid arguments. Wolin points out that corporations run the government not the citizens I have learned all about this in civics classes in the past. Congress does favors for corporations...corporations pay back the favor. And as for Moglen I learn more and more everyday how not private citizens lives are. We are spied on and we think it is okay for safety. Until recently that is how I felt. The media scares citizens into thinking it is okay for the government to watch us to keep us safe. When in fact we are no safer than before. As far as where this will take the US. I believe it is on the right track to going very badly. If no one steps up, the US has a chance of becoming totalitarian.
ReplyDeleteAlicia Himes
PSCI 100.02
I definitely agree with Wolin's view on the managed democracy. The U.S. has slight totalitarian views, but it is nothing drastic. It would take a revolution or some type of chaos for the U.S. to become a completely totalitarian government. I believe that the government is trying to control our lives more and make us less free. I do not believe with what Moglen says. The U.S. should not be able to just spy and tap into everything, in some cases yes, but your typical person in America is not plotting terrorist attacks. The U.S. could be shifting it's ways in government, but it is nothing overwhelming.
ReplyDeleteBlake Johnson
PSCI 100:03
I feel the same way that Blake does on Wolin's view on the managed democracy. The US has glimpses of totalitarian views but it is sort of hidden. The US would never ever be converted to Totalitarianism because Americans think to freely. We refuse to give up the rights that we already have. Hell would freeze over before it would happen. I feel as though the government is trying to tighten the leash more and more each day. Moglen is retarded, the government should not have the power to do whatever they want. I understand that we have to be aware of possible situations, but only within reason.
DeleteTyrek Collier
PSCI 100:03
I believe the American Gov has been using fear and the media to basically convince the American people that its ok to give up some of your freedoms for security. That to me is complete bullshit. There is no reason someone should be snooping around my business or telling me they should be able to monitor the things I do because there is a threat to me. In my opinion, the US gov is trying to keep up a democratic image while clearly acting like a totalitarian regime. They are trying to produce more and more hyper vigilant Americans that will ultimately depend on the government to "save them from all the terrorists out there." Shut up already.
ReplyDeleteChelse O'Connor
I don't think the US is on its way to becoming totalitarian or using procedures of totalitarianism. I do however agree with Wolin's belief that the democracy of the United States lacks actual political participation and should be referred to as a managed democracy. "A political form in which governments are legitimated by elections that they have learned to control". I think that is definitely true of the United States. The surveillance is certainly an issue but I don't think it's one of totalitarianism. It may have started out as protection against terrorism but now it's gotten out of hand. I don't think the government should have the right to spy on anyone in any country without some type of evidence linking them to terrorist plots.
ReplyDeleteKayla McFarland PSCI 100.03
I find it very hard to believe that those in power in the US actually have the freedom and happiness of the public in mind, the way they behave. The amount of (poorly legitimized, but apparently accepted by everyone involved) corruption in the government, combined with what has been mentioned like scaring citizens into giving up their rights, monitoring US citizens, etc...It all seems like a bright neon sign saying 'The government is trying to control you'.
ReplyDeleteThe government is shifting its policies, slowly but surely, to that of a totalitarian regime, doing it in such a way that each step feels justified and people believe when their leaders tell them its being done for their own good. Scaring people by pointing at invisible enemies from the outside - and inside - is an age-old tactic that has been used countless times in regimes and dictatorships in history. Despite everyone being aware of the aphorism 'those who do not remember history are doomed to repeat it' we are doing just that. But I suppose things like that are harder to notice from the inside. I used to think when people said things like 9/11 was an inside job, perpetrated by the government to justify passing things like, say, the Patriot Act, they were just crazy conspiracy theorists, but now I'd be surprised if that wasn't the case.
To summarize, yes, I agree with Wolin and Moglin, and I hope dearly that the American people realize it before its too late.
Pete Sheehan
PSCI 100:003
The United States is acting as a totalitarian state by trying to force all other nations to conform. I agree that the government is keeping everyone in political apathy and most citizens have given up trying to make changes in our system. I agree with both of these stand points. The government is using many totalitarian principles to control the population right under our noses. The difference between the U.S from known totalitarian systems, such as North Korea, is that the people have know idea what is going on. The government is brainwashing its people with so called "acceptable norms" that are not morally acceptable to the slightest bit and not to mention far from democracy. The U.S maintains the conceit that we are highly democratic, but when you look at the facts it makes you want to laugh. Peoples lives are completely controlled by the government from the instance one is born and all throughout school images, propaganda, allegiances, and docility is required.
ReplyDeleteI feel that we can turn into a totalitarian government if we do not establish a better boundary between safety and our rights. Since the attack of 9/11 the government has been taking more control over society to make us a more safe environment. But I feel that they are slowly crossing the line between security and control. Unless the government comes up with a better solution that protects but respects our privacy I think eventually we will become a totalitarian government.
ReplyDeleteAmanda Malave
PSCI 100.02
The US government take the role of "policing the world" sometimes without being ask for, in this way money can be put in wars that are not really necessary or none of the US business. Some people are convince that this is a must, because of the threat of communism, terrorism or whatever threat maybe available for this purpose. There are those that make money this way, and they call it patriotism, freedom or anything else that will suit their needs. The media does not help at all because it only tell what is happening here, nothing about the rest of the world, and some people believe that the US is the center of the world. Both articles have some true to what they refer to. It is going to be difficult for the US to change the foreign policies, and not police the world anymore. As far as reverse totalitarianism it is something that could happen, and we maybe closer than we think.
ReplyDeleteJanet Loue
PSCI 100.2
I think that it is possible for the American government to become a totalitarian government. In recent years the government has become more controlling of its citizens and of foreign countries. The U.S. wants other countries to conform into the U.S.'s view of a functioning government. Overall I agree with Wolin's view of the American government.
ReplyDeleteBrenna Rose
PSCI 100:03
I disagree with Wolin when he concludes that the government tries to suppress political action.Protests happen all the time, this is a type of political action. I do agree the propaganda in the US is similar to Nazi, Germany, though media was highly regulated in Germany, our media doesnt cover a wide spectrum of things, so I agree when Wolin says "people... only hear points of view the corporate media deems "serious". I also understand where Wolin is coming from when he talks about US downsizing and outsourcing jobs abroad. However i don't see what this has to do with a "totalitarian government"
ReplyDeleteI can agree that spying has become normal, but I believe that it is necessary to take preventative measures no matter how little effect it may have.
-Alicia White
PSCI 100:02
My first instinct is to say, no, of course the US is not a totalitarian state. However, after reading about inverted totalitarianism and how that might relate to the United States, I would have to agree with Wolin. The US may not be a totalitarian state but it certainly shares many characteristics of one.Certainly, things like the NSA spying on American citizens creates a sense of fear, or at least apprehension and allows the government to control the population.
ReplyDeleteJoseph Smith
PSCI 100:02
I do not believe that the United States will ever become a totalitarian country, but I do believe that it does have totalitarian tendencies. I agree with Wolin when he said that less people are voting because they do not believe that their vote will have an effect. People are beginning to not vote because they do not trust the government. In reference to being in fear, I do not believe that I live in fear, therefore we are not in a totalitarian state.
ReplyDeleteSpying on other nations has become a little extreme. It is nice that we have the technology and the ability to find out certain information, but I do not think that it should be used so readily.
Cara Mason
PSCI 100:02
To me, everything Wolin and Moglen said is viable. I agree with what Joseph said (above), about my first instinct would be to say that the US is not totalitarian. It seems crazy to think that when compared to North Korea or Italy or Nazi Germany. Wolin's notion of managed democracy makes a lot of sense, where politicians have figured out a way to make the system work in their favor; "a political form in which governments are legitimated by elections that they have learned to control". It is scary to think about that statement when we have been taught that our duty as citizens is to vote.
ReplyDeleteOn the subject of spying, Moglen says that it has become a norm. That isn't good that this is the case, because it does violate our basic rights and freedoms as humans. We shouldn't be able to justify spying on other nations because of 9/11 which happened 12 years ago.
Haley Smith
PSCI 100:02
I think that the US is in a slow evolution of the government gaining more power but do not believe we are an inverted totalitarian. I do agree that because of an attack that was over 12 years ago the government has made it their excuse to be able to have surveillance of its citizens and others. I do not completely agree with Moglen and Wolin but understand their thought process on these occurring problems. It does scare me though that it is becoming a norm to have such high surveillance of everyone as well as people being told it is normal when that is not the case.
ReplyDeleteZoe Robinson
PSCI 100:02
I don't believe that the United States will ever turn to totalitarianism as their form of government. We may have totalitarian tendencies, but the people already have too much of an influence on the government to do that. Although we have to power and technology to monitor other countries, and citizens of other countries, I feel as though America is taking advantage of this privilege and are completely taking away peoples right to privacy. I understand that this is for our nation's safety, but that only goes to a certain extent until it just turns into vigilance. 9/11 gave us a good reason to be paranoid of another terrorist attack, but along with protecting our country, are we taking advantage of our privileges?
ReplyDeleteKelsey Phelan
PSCI 100:02
Totalitarianism in this country would have to be incremental with the magic slant of hand to distract the populace. Meaning the apparatus would slowly be legislated. Those who point to such visible changes are marginalized as kooks and conspiracy nuts by the corporate media and the elected politicians.Who will remember Wolin or Moglen? Who will remember the warnings from the ACLU or the Tea Party if it ever a totalitarian system came to power? No one will.
ReplyDeleteThe point of voting in the article is interesting in the fact we are losing interest. We are more tuned into pop culture, social media, and sports. The individuals who live in those realms effect your life how? Can they order you around? Can they take your property, tax you, force you with vaccines even jail you?
Does the fantasy football players (FFP)and I stress fantasy scrutinize their mayor, county council, state officials they same they do their team? How does a players performances improve or harm the life of a FFP? No doubt we know more about Payton Manning, his stats, his education, his charitable contributions, where he was born, what kind of shit paper he buys, who his parents are etc etc. Does the FFP dump their players for poor performance or is it the love of losing that makes a FFP hold on to that bum player. Does the FFP know anything about their local elected official? Like their name for instance? Does the "R" or the "D" next to the name determine the vote for a FFP? Sorry to beat up on the FFP's, same would go for the lovers of the movie and music industry. I just wanted to point out how we can become distracted. If you throw a frog in a pot of hot water, he'll jump out, if you put him in a pot of cold water and incrementally turn up the burner, he'll cook.
I do not believe that the U.S is taking on totalitarian tendencies like Wolin states in his definition of inverted totalitarianism, however security has drastically increased since the 9/11 attacks. Because it's been 12 years since the attacks, many people believe that the U.S government is beginning to take advantaged of high security surveillance of U.S citizens and in some ways I agree. I definitely agree with Moglen when he says we are being told that being spied on is becoming normal, and I honestly don't think that they government will lighten up their use of security either. With that being said, I do not believe that it is right for the government to continue their use of high surveillance on U.S citizens, because the idea of the United States is freedom, and how free are you really when you are constantly under watch by the government.
ReplyDeleteShannon Lyons
PSCI 100:03
I do not think the government of the United States will ever turn to totalitarianism. Yes, the US government is gaining more power, but to say that it will ever have the power to be in complete control over the American people is ridiculous. We may have some policies that do limit the freedom of Americans, but the people will never stand for having all of their freedoms being taken away and becoming a collective. Riots would break out all across the country and probably a second revolution would occur. I agree the the government can have tendencies that swing more towards totalitarianism views, but the government of the US will never become totalitarian in its entirety.
ReplyDeleteMoglen makes some interesting points about surveillance and tapping in on U.S. citizens information. The security in airports and government buildings has definitely increased since 9/11 with good reason, but I think that the government should be focusing on other means of finding the enemy than collecting unneeded phone calls and texts. That is too broad of a way of searching. I think that Wolin is crazy to think that our country has the likeness of Nazi propaganda. As an artist, I can say that we have the freedom to create whatever art we want and there is no one leader controlling that realm. Hitler took total control over every piece of work weather it be propaganda or a painting, and he commanded that they look like he want them too. If these statements from Moglen and Wolin are true, that means for me that the art world a.k.a "my world" would crumble. Freedom of the art world would be ruined and we will have to watch every word said over a telephone conversation.
ReplyDeleteCarleigh Underwood PSCI 100:03
I think Wolin and Moglen make interesting points but some are more convincing than others. Wolin's point about cooperations running our government is partly true, but as we've seen with the shutdown they don't control all aspects. Moglen's bit about how our state uses the excuse of efforts to prevent a terrorist attack to justify they actions for spying. It's a kind of paranoia that the government is under, so if it can spy, unconstrained without the people consent it will feel safe and even like they are doing it for good. But to compare it to other totalitarian regimes in history is kind of extreme. I think we do need to rethink out foreign policies and not go where we are not needed. I also think there is no government system that everyone will be happy with and support completely.
ReplyDeleteJoey Diaz
PSCI 100.03
The people who wrote these articles are definitely on to something. The government are the ones off their rockers. If lightning has killed more Americans than terrorism then why would the government keep pushing for more surveillance? We as the American people are slaves and victims of our own country and yet we don't even know it. We are headed to a totalitarian police state society where we have no right and when we are under total 24 hour surveillance by the government. Secretly congress has been stripping away our rights like for example NDAA, Patriot Act and other laws that slowly drive us to a totalitarian state.
ReplyDeletePSCI 100
Carlos Amaya
I totally agree with Carlos. I never thought of citizens now a days becoming victims by our own country because of the government interferences with our rights. But for privacy, I do have to say that I like to feel protected and don't mind the government listening to my conversations on the phone nor watching us while I'm at the airport or on a street. What if something horrible happened to me and there was no evidence of my disappearance or if a terrorist was holding someone hostage? I do believe that we need some kind of surveillance but, no one can take freedom nor rights away from anyone. No one could ever force someone to change their beliefs, thoughts, or ideas about something. That is what makes you a person, as an individual.
DeletePSCI 100:02
Ashley Cole
Yes i think it is crazy that our country thinks it is okay to spy on us. I believe until we are caught doing some thing along the lines of terrorism the government should not have the right to spy on us in any way. We are a democracy and we are americans we have the right to our privacy.
ReplyDeleteMike Reed
Something I found incredibly ironic earlier this year was the fact that United States Government has repeatedly talked down to countries like China for spying on its citizens and not only that have been accused of trying to spy on us and hack our computers.
ReplyDeleteWhen the Snowden leak occurred all of a sudden the roles were reversed. There was documented proof that the United States had been trying to do the same thing that they were accusing China of doing.
I agree with these articles. We are heading towards if not already inverted totalitarian state. The fact that the NSA spies on us and most likely reading these threads is disturbing. The fact that Congressmen do not have term limits allows them to create power groups within the government and that is not a democratic government.
Matthew McNuss 100-02
Of course after 9/11 surveillance was increased to keep America protected. The NSA now though, has gone too far. I believe that we are headed towards an inverted totalitarian government and that Wolin's beliefs are true. The government is secretly getting too involved into citizens lives and that is not the kind of government that we need.
ReplyDeletePSCI 100:02
I believe the government has got out of hand with their surveillance.. We have the right to our privacy until they have a reason to think we did something wrong. I think that they shouldn't be spying on us like they do until they have reason and proof.
ReplyDeleteDanielle McManus
PSCI 100:02
Personally I feel as though the government should have a right to spy and intervene if they suspect anything suspicious. However, I do feel that these men make a convincing argument. It does show signs of a totalitarian government or authoritative rule. No really thinks about the chances of a terrorist attack so it is weird to think that we are being spied on out of what is most likely fear. On the other hand, if it keeps me safe, maybe it is not such a bad idea.
ReplyDeleteHaley Greene
PSCI 100:02
Wolin does have a point that the USA is moving towards a managed democracy. The points that really got me on board were that the US does try to butt in to preemptive wars, for example what almost happened in Syria. I feel that under Bush, our military would have been there in the blink of an eye.
ReplyDeleteMark McCormick